iSonic 72cm / 123L Hoechstgeschwindigkeit

Zitat von KaSailor

Zitat von dominik49

Slalomsegel sind idR relativ groß und verlangen eine Halsentechnik, die auch im oberen Windbereich mit dieser Übergröße klar kommt.

Generell bockig würde ich nicht sagen, sie liegen auf der Gerade super stabil im Wind, sind sehr druckpunktstabil und vertragen die Böen sehr gut. Man kann dem Segel ziemlich wenig Aufmerksamkeit schenken, der Vortrieb ist einfach da.

Was bockig wirken kann, ist das Slalomsegeln völlig fehlende Off - um mal die Wavesegelsprache zu verwenden. Sie haben immer einen Bauch (und sei es einen Camber-Bauch verkehrt herum) und damit sobald irgendwie angeströmt ein "Eigenleben" und eine Power beim Handling - eben kein rotationalmäßig flachgezogenes Profil.

Möglicherweise liegt da ein Missverständnis vor - ich bezog das "Bockig" auf die camberlosen Segel.

Aha. Danke für den Hinweis auf das Missverständnis. Du hast also gemeint, dass die Freeridesegel "bockig" werden.

Nach meiner Beobachtung sind es schon auch die großen, breiten Freerideboards mit ihren langen großen, Passiv-Angleitfinnen, die nur für das größte tragbare Segel im unteren Windbereich passen und ihre Nutzer veranlassen, beim Auffrischen des Windes rasch das Material zu wechseln.

Es ist im wesentlichen das Segel, was zicken macht. Wenn ich das mal vergleiche fahre ich am Homespot ca. 1 m² weniger als die Racer. Allerdings bin ich damit auch nicht später am Rutschen, sondern meist sogar etwas früher. Dafür gleite ich Windlöcher schlechter durch, da ein SL Segel einmal aufgeladen und richtig angeströmt einfach super durchgleitet.

Nach oben raus bin ich mit dem einen m weniger auch genauso früh am Ende. Selbst ein 2 cam Freerace Segel ist wesentlich weniger Profilstabil wie ein Racesegel. Ein Nocam Segel ist eben noch ehr am Ende.

Selber gehe ich so von ca. 60 km/h vmax für nocam Segel aus. Es wird dann schwer mit dem Anstellwinkel.

Der Andrea von P7 hat dazu einen schönen Vergleich gemacht - 3x mit ca 7,5qm mit no cam, 3cam, 4cam in Malcesine. Er ist 3x etwa 70kmh gefahren im Kabbel. Zu finden auf DuRöhre.

gabelbaumrob Ich glaub Du meinst 2 und 3 cam. 4 cam hat Point-7 schon länger nicht mehr. Top getrimmt haben die klar ein sehr gutes Top-End. Hauptunterschied wird Beschleunigung sein.

Es ist ein bekanntes Feature, dass Freeridesegel unten herum mehr Power haben und das (insb passive) Angleiten sehr gut unterstützen. Bei gleicher Segelgröße und längerer Gleitfläche sollte ein Freerider klar früher gleiten.

blinki-bill Dass ein Racesegel oben raus gleich früh Schluss hat, wie ein 1 m2 kleineres Freeridesegel mag ich nicht so recht glauben. Ich denk es ist später Schluss.

Wann ist Schluss mit einem 6.7 Freeridesegel?

Ein 7.7 Warp geht schon bis ca 25 - 30 kn Grundwind.

Zitat von dominik49

Wann ist Schluss mit einem 6.7 Freeridesegel?

Ein 7.7 Warp geht schon bis ca 25 - 30 kn Grundwind.

Ich habe praktisch genau die Kombination, 7,8er Warp, darunter ein älteres 6,7er Freeridesegel.

Wenn das 7,8er nicht mehr geht, kann ich eigentlich gleich auf mein 6,0 Freeride gehen.

dominik49 : jeder macht so seine eigenen Erfahrungen und Beobachtungen. Hatte im übrigen auch von Freerace mt 2 Cambern geredet, nicht von Freeride Segeln. Vielleicht probierst du das auch mal. Stichwort Lernen per Kontrast

Und gabelbaumrob hat recht, Andrea Cucchi ist mit dem camberlosen Point7 annähernd gleich schnell wie mit den Cambersegeln (~70 km/h) gewesen:

Wer den mal auf dem Lago von hinten gesehen hat merkt: es ist noch Luft nach oben

Andrea Cucchi ... knapp 70kmh top speed in 18..20knt Wind im chop des Gardasees..!

Die Skills des Surfers machen den Unterschied.

Ich hatte nicht nur die Gunst ihn zu sehen, sondern auch zeitgleich auf dem Wasser zu sein. ?

blinki-bill Im August 2019, also vor mehr als vier Jahren, hatte das AC One also noch vier Camber. Hatte im Kopf das Video wäre jünger, sorry. Ein Cam weniger ist schon länger ein Feature des AC One.

In #63 ging ich davon aus, dass 2-cam erst am Ende des Absatz 2 erwähnt werden. Schlechteres Durchgleiten, das Du in Absatz 1 erwähnst, würde ich bei zwei Cams nicht vermuten wollen.

Den Übergang von Freeride zu Freerace finde ich fließend, wobei Cam-Anzahl und Top-End sicher gute Kriterien sind.

Jetzt geh ich auf's Wasser 5.5 oder 6.2, 4 Cams sind fix.

Hier noch einmal das eindeutige Ergebnis:

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Zitat von dominik49

Schlechteres Durchgleiten, das Du in Absatz 1 erwähnst, würde ich bei zwei Cams nicht vermuten wollen.

Ist aber so. Habe folgende These: Je schlanker die Masttasche, desto schlechter das Durchgleitverhalten.

Habe mich hier Jahren auch mal am Dümmer gematcht. Ich 6,5 Freerider, Kolkege irgendwas mit 8er Camber und Slalom. Ca. die ersten 200m gehörten immer mir, danach donnerte er an mir vorbei. Also die gleichen Erfahrungen wie Blinki.

Zitat von blinki-bill

Habe folgende These: Je schlanker die Masttasche, desto schlechter das Durchgleitverhalten.

Denke je stabiler und voller das Profil gerade im Bereich der Anströmkante bleibt, desto besser ist das Durchgleitverhalten.

An der Masttasche(nbreite) würde ich das nicht festmachen.

Manche Segel haben ja vorne weicheres Material oder größere Lattenabstände, damit sie sich besser Aufpowern bei etwas Druck. Dieses Verhalten stört im Überpower und wirkt sich auch dann aus, wenn der Druck im Windloch eben fehlt, noch schlimmer, wenn sich das (Rotational-)Segel um den Mast "aufrollt".

Das Slalomsegel behält seinen Bauch zu 99,x % und hat ein relativ offenes Achterliek, das weniger Gefahr läuft in weitem Bereich oversheeted zu werden. Deshalb gleitet es besser durch.

Zitat von Hifly666

Habe mich hier Jahren auch mal am Dümmer gematcht. Ich 6,5 Freerider, Kolkege irgendwas mit 8er Camber und Slalom. Ca. die ersten 200m gehörten immer mir, danach donnerte er an mir vorbei. Also die gleichen Erfahrungen wie Blinki.

Der beschriebene Effekt dürfte allein dem überragenden Angleitverhalten der Freeridematerials/Freeracematerials geschuldet sein, oder? Nicht der Beschleunigung im Gleiten.

BTW: Mit Freeracematerial tu ich mir begrifflich generell schwer, da es je nach Hersteller und Modell a) fast Freeride oder b) fast Slalom sein kann.

Zum einen sicher ja, aber ich denke auch das die Slalomkombination in Summe dann auch schwerer war, und die Masse will ja erstmal beschleunigen werden.

Am Ende ist bei entsprechendem Fahrkönnen Slalom immer schneller als Freerider das ist ja klar.

Zitat von mariachi76

Hallo all,

in Anlehnung an den Fred zum Tabou Rocket 125L - selbe Frage zum iSonic 72/123L (2020).

Ich (82kg) habe schon ein paar mal versucht, mit dem Brett auf 2 sec Rekordjagd zu gehen. 31.32kn war bislang der Top-Speed mit dem board, mit Overdrive M2 7.0 Segel und Z-Finne 37cm bei 20-25kn Wind.

In dem Geschwindigkeitsbereich bekomme ich aber ziemliche Kontrollprobleme bei dem Brett - ich kann das Brett nicht mehr unten halten. Daher frage ich mich, ob bei meinem Gewicht von 82kg hier einfach die Grenze bei einem 123L Board erreicht ist, oder ob da noch mehr gehen sollte (besseres tuning, besserer Fahrer :-).

Bei geringfuegig mehr Wind am selben spot erreiche ich mit meinem Freeracer Severne Fox 105L/65cm und 6.2er Segel ca. 1.5kn mehr (32.73kn), noch ohne Kontrollprobleme.

Daher einfach die Frage, wie schnell ein 72cm/123L Slalom Brett von einem 82kg Fahrer ueberhaupt bewegt werden kann (chop ca. 30-40 cm).

lg

mariachi76

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I am now 90kg, 10yrs ago I was 79kg and used iSonic boards. The iSonic 133 I reached once 36.6kts topspeed (34,8kts 500m) on flat water, in chop I did +-32.5 kts on iSonic 133/122/117/117w. The iS107 was faster 37.5kts on small chop or in big chop 35 kts. I also had the iSonic 72 (2021) later as a 90kg windsurfer and reached about the same speed as the iSonic 107 (@79kg).

I another topic I read you front foot in flying out of the strap. This is a common problem for amateurs, the cause is the boarddesign needs to be "easy=automatic trimming" on the edge for mr Albeau/Dunkerbeck to win races, for amateurs (less weight strenght and muscle memory) this same design is challenging on the edge. Often the trim of the sail is quite good (as designed) when front foot issue arrises, however it is no use for a amateur (though Dunkerbeck gear would feel the same, however dunkerbeck doesn't experience front foot issues). The front foot issue is always a forward momentum problem. This means, when you look at your board sideways, water contact starts somewhere at the front footstrap and ends at the tail. Your weight is distributed over this wet area. Lets say (not exactly True) that in the middle of the footstraps is the center of effort (weight) for forward momentum. This means that if the nose of the board goes up/down it the center (middle of front/back footstrap) doesn't move UP or down, in the middle of the front and back footstrap is the rotation point just like the middle of a caroussel. The chop pushes the nose UP, the sail and fin pushes the nose down, the board rotates from the center of effort (between straps). The riders weight+strenght on backfoot pushes nose UP. Front foot problems means that your sail+Fin push the nose to much down. Your front foot tries to pull the nose up (however this is ineffective and costs way to much energy). The solution is most often the sail, sometimes the Fin, or change your body (grow muscles and weight).

Front foot solution sail:

We need to bring the center of effort down, the top of the sail has to deliver less power. First is to release tension of the top 3 battens. Often this is not enough, if this is the case than this sail+mast isnt cut for you. If you really want this sail to perform: you can open UP the top with a more flextop mast. For example take a 430 top instead of the 460, this is quite effective. As a lightweight 10yrs ago I liked to use smaller sails with powerfull setup (bit less downhaul, full belly and tackstrap tension high), a smaller sail (same design) also lowers the sail center of effort. If you like bigger sails try to look if the top 2 panels fall a bit down. I am sorry but I cannot really point which brands are now very good (I only use 2020-2023 loft switchblade).

Fin solution:

I do use custom Fins. Which means I would specificly say (to Sonntag Fins in my case) that I was having front foot issues (to much forward moment) with board x and he made the lay-up in a way that the Fin could be shorter (which means less front foot issues). Also here it applies, the best fin for Antoine is not the best fin for an amateur often.

Conclusion fin&sail

front foot issues = shorter fin or sail (less surface) is effective

front foor issues = trimming is quite difficult (often ends in trying many masts and fins, which is good for windsurf economy. However it makes windsurfing not fun, actually destroys fun in my opinion)

New performance gear with less front foot issues:

New gear is heavily influenced by pro riders as always. One thing is the waist harnas, most pro's today use this, leightweight pro's are not much around. 10 years ago we saw Antoine, dunkerbeck and many others use both seat and waistharnass. The pro feedback count for each year improvements. A lot of amateurs often use a seat harnas. The current short flat (fat ass) bottom on slalomboards are automatically leveling on the edge when using a waist harnass and trained windsurfer. This was my sad conclusion after 1 year on iSonic 72. Yes it is faster, but it is difficult to keep going fast because as a amateur I feel like I have to push 100% down on backfoot to keep things in balance (and that is not good). Going slow has become easier on the new iSonic. I even changed to waist harnas because with a seat it simply didnt match that well.

As a starboard fan since 2003 I eventually tried a fanatic jag (just 7cm longer than starboard) and it was better and easier did 40kts and could blast all day on all courses. It was a bit like a combination of the old iSonic and Futura. I really wanted a starboard, but futura is way to short, the carve I had my doubts. I had a Severne Fox105 too, which is comfy bump and jump, but not something for speed (though on real flat water everything goes fast). I looked into slalomboards from other brands than starboard, the fanatic falcon is shorter than the jag. I read about Tribal Radix, even 4cm longer than fanatic jag and True slalom. Designer uses a seat harnass, promissing... I bought 3 (102-118-135) Tribal radix boards begin this year and did 40 sessions. First I postioned the front footstrap in forward position and back footstrap in backward position, just to test the theory (longer board/flat is no front foot issues). The wide stance never worked out for me (also older starboards), but on the Radix it does. No more front foot issues. Stance is really good and that is a good start in my opinion, later I moved the straps to the back (in summer I need weedfins). Pro's also use equipment which is easy for them (that is what you need to win).

The tribal radix was not all perfect from start. Because most sails are made for these shorter boards and also influenced through our new proriders. The Radix is a bit different and would like a 2010-2012 slalomsail. My Loft Switchblade (2020-2023) works fine but with rec. rdm mast I peaked at +- 35 kts, but was not magical with the Radix. The nose was still a bit low when using a bigger sail. I tried the Nolimitz fast and NL original instead of the loft RDM, this added a tiny bit performance. Since I use in bigger sailsizes a stiffer base or softer masttop, the Loft Swithcblade works pretty goood with the Radix. The Swithcblade look like the older slalomsails (open top) which Dunki and Albeau used with a seat harnass. Last session the Radix 118 peaked 38kts with 7.3 switchblade (490rdm base + 460rdm top). The Radix 102 even 39.5kts with 6.8 (460rdm base + 430rdm top). The Radix 135 almost 34kts on 7.8 with 490 loft RDM.

I am curious about the new tribal sails. The Tribal Radix did deliver for me, faster than freerace and other slalom, it is not all marketing stuff. I hope they succeed this or in the next years to make excellent sails for normal windsurfers. For now I am going to enjoy my current gear, the loftsails, masts (RDM) and tribal radix are constructed well (no damage or deformation yet) and came in good shape (close to what it should be) when I bought it.

Topspeed max strategy on normal windsurf spots

Most of my sessions are in quite chaotic water (knee/waist high unconsistent chop), my strategy: Once your trim is comfy yet powerfull you can push for higher speed. In choppy conditions it heavily relies on high crosswind speed. If it is easy to close-the-gap sail but not fast==> better release downhaul/outhaul a bit, you need to feel the sail respond a little bit to the wind (but in a controlable way). Your sail doesn't have to be close-the-gap for topspeed, you have to feel which sailposition delivers most pressure. Once you experience good crosswind speed AND feel loads of pressure in your sail, only then turn downwind slowly and try to keep the pressure in the sail (to much downwind will loose pressure), move your body a bit backward when turning downwind. Putting mastfoot backward (to rise the nose) is often overloading the fin (the fin starts than to push the nose down and you may spin-out), a neutral mastfoot position is best to start.

A pro trick is making use of shower, often before/beginning of shower the wind increases and winddirection shifts (10~20 degrees). Which means if you are at the right place it is possible to sail downwind between chop in stronger wind, mastering this easily adds 3-4kts, but only if gear is correct for you. If you look out for this you will get local adventage. That is why it is realistic that an amateur (knowing where and when to be somewhere) on his homespot could be as fast or faster than a pro.

Zitat von Erik Loots

I am now 90kg, 10yrs ago I was 79kg and used iSonic boards. The iSonic 133 I reached once 36.6kts topspeed (34,8kts 500m) on flat water, in chop I did +-32.5 kts on iSonic 133/122/117/117w. The iS107 was faster 37.5kts on small chop or in big chop 35 kts. I also had the iSonic 72 (2021) later as a 90kg windsurfer and reached about the same speed as the iSonic 107 (@79kg).

I another topic I read you front foot in flying out of the strap. This is a common problem for amateurs, the cause is the boarddesign needs to be "easy=automatic trimming" on the edge for mr Albeau/Dunkerbeck to win races, for amateurs (less weight strenght and muscle memory) this same design is challenging on the edge. Often the trim of the sail is quite good (as designed) when front foot issue arrises, however it is no use for a amateur (though Dunkerbeck gear would feel the same, however dunkerbeck doesn't experience front foot issues). The front foot issue is always a forward momentum problem. This means, when you look at your board sideways, water contact starts somewhere at the front footstrap and ends at the tail. Your weight is distributed over this wet area. Lets say (not exactly True) that in the middle of the footstraps is the center of effort (weight) for forward momentum. This means that if the nose of the board goes up/down it the center (middle of front/back footstrap) doesn't move UP or down, in the middle of the front and back footstrap is the rotation point just like the middle of a caroussel. The chop pushes the nose UP, the sail and fin pushes the nose down, the board rotates from the center of effort (between straps). The riders weight+strenght on backfoot pushes nose UP. Front foot problems means that your sail+Fin push the nose to much down. Your front foot tries to pull the nose up (however this is ineffective and costs way to much energy). The solution is most often the sail, sometimes the Fin, or change your body (grow muscles and weight).

Front foot solution sail:

We need to bring the center of effort down, the top of the sail has to deliver less power. First is to release tension of the top 3 battens. Often this is not enough, if this is the case than this sail+mast isnt cut for you. If you really want this sail to perform: you can open UP the top with a more flextop mast. For example take a 430 top instead of the 460, this is quite effective. As a lightweight 10yrs ago I liked to use smaller sails with powerfull setup (bit less downhaul, full belly and tackstrap tension high), a smaller sail (same design) also lowers the sail center of effort. If you like bigger sails try to look if the top 2 panels fall a bit down. I am sorry but I cannot really point which brands are now very good (I only use 2020-2023 loft switchblade).

Fin solution:

I do use custom Fins. Which means I would specificly say (to Sonntag Fins in my case) that I was having front foot issues (to much forward moment) with board x and he made the lay-up in a way that the Fin could be shorter (which means less front foot issues). Also here it applies, the best fin for Antoine is not the best fin for an amateur often.

Conclusion fin&sail

front foot issues = shorter fin or sail (less surface) is effective

front foor issues = trimming is quite difficult (often ends in trying many masts and fins, which is good for windsurf economy. However it makes windsurfing not fun, actually destroys fun in my opinion)

New performance gear with less front foot issues:

New gear is heavily influenced by pro riders as always. One thing is the waist harnas, most pro's today use this, leightweight pro's are not much around. 10 years ago we saw Antoine, dunkerbeck and many others use both seat and waistharnass. The pro feedback count for each year improvements. A lot of amateurs often use a seat harnas. The current short flat (fat ass) bottom on slalomboards are automatically leveling on the edge when using a waist harnass and trained windsurfer. This was my sad conclusion after 1 year on iSonic 72. Yes it is faster, but it is difficult to keep going fast because as a amateur I feel like I have to push 100% down on backfoot to keep things in balance (and that is not good). Going slow has become easier on the new iSonic. I even changed to waist harnas because with a seat it simply didnt match that well.

As a starboard fan since 2003 I eventually tried a fanatic jag (just 7cm longer than starboard) and it was better and easier did 40kts and could blast all day on all courses. It was a bit like a combination of the old iSonic and Futura. I really wanted a starboard, but futura is way to short, the carve I had my doubts. I had a Severne Fox105 too, which is comfy bump and jump, but not something for speed (though on real flat water everything goes fast). I looked into slalomboards from other brands than starboard, the fanatic falcon is shorter than the jag. I read about Tribal Radix, even 4cm longer than fanatic jag and True slalom. Designer uses a seat harnass, promissing... I bought 3 (102-118-135) Tribal radix boards begin this year and did 40 sessions. First I postioned the front footstrap in forward position and back footstrap in backward position, just to test the theory (longer board/flat is no front foot issues). The wide stance never worked out for me (also older starboards), but on the Radix it does. No more front foot issues. Stance is really good and that is a good start in my opinion, later I moved the straps to the back (in summer I need weedfins). Pro's also use equipment which is easy for them (that is what you need to win).

The tribal radix was not all perfect from start. Because most sails are made for these shorter boards and also influenced through our new proriders. The Radix is a bit different and would like a 2010-2012 slalomsail. My Loft Switchblade (2020-2023) works fine but with rec. rdm mast I peaked at +- 35 kts, but was not magical with the Radix. The nose was still a bit low when using a bigger sail. I tried the Nolimitz fast and NL original instead of the loft RDM, this added a tiny bit performance. Since I use in bigger sailsizes a stiffer base or softer masttop, the Loft Swithcblade works pretty goood with the Radix. The Swithcblade look like the older slalomsails (open top) which Dunki and Albeau used with a seat harnass. Last session the Radix 118 peaked 38kts with 7.3 switchblade (490rdm base + 460rdm top). The Radix 102 even 39.5kts with 6.8 (460rdm base + 430rdm top). The Radix 135 almost 34kts on 7.8 with 490 loft RDM.

I am curious about the new tribal sails. The Tribal Radix did deliver for me, faster than freerace and other slalom, it is not all marketing stuff. I hope they succeed this or in the next years to make excellent sails for normal windsurfers. For now I am going to enjoy my current gear, the loftsails, masts (RDM) and tribal radix are constructed well (no damage or deformation yet) and came in good shape (close to what it should be) when I bought it.

Topspeed max strategy on normal windsurf spots

Most of my sessions are in quite chaotic water (knee/waist high unconsistent chop), my strategy: Once your trim is comfy yet powerfull you can push for higher speed. In choppy conditions it heavily relies on high crosswind speed. If it is easy to close-the-gap sail but not fast==> better release downhaul/outhaul a bit, you need to feel the sail respond a little bit to the wind (but in a controlable way). Your sail doesn't have to be close-the-gap for topspeed, you have to feel which sailposition delivers most pressure. Once you experience good crosswind speed AND feel loads of pressure in your sail, only then turn downwind slowly and try to keep the pressure in the sail (to much downwind will loose pressure), move your body a bit backward when turning downwind. Putting mastfoot backward (to rise the nose) is often overloading the fin (the fin starts than to push the nose down and you may spin-out), a neutral mastfoot position is best to start.

A pro trick is making use of shower, often before/beginning of shower the wind increases and winddirection shifts (10~20 degrees). Which means if you are at the right place it is possible to sail downwind between chop in stronger wind, mastering this easily adds 3-4kts, but only if gear is correct for you. If you look out for this you will get local adventage. That is why it is realistic that an amateur (knowing where and when to be somewhere) on his homespot could be as fast or faster than a pro.

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Very interesting post. Once I bought a 2009 Vapor 5,0 with the matching Gaastra mast. Until then, I used race sails from the 90´s. Though a modern "high end" sail then, I found it uncomfortable in strong winds, and put more and more downhaul. That did not help at all, and when I overhauled it, I felt totally loss of control. I ended up with using a North Platinum instead of the "right mast": On the Platinum the sail breathed more, and even with less downhaul it felt very stable, controlable. So for me, as an recreational sailor, who weighs ~72kg, the mast with more top flex worked way better, than the brands´one.

Posts like your´s hopefully encourage windsurfers, to try other than the original masts (or shorter/softer tops), as they sometimes may work better.

Since the 5,0 Vapor, I always use to masts, which have slightly more top flex, than the original ones, and I am really happy with this solution.