Abgesprochenes Spiel PWA Slalom Regeln zwischen Starboard/Fanatic/JP gegen PATRIK?

  • and sorry I sound arrogant or self assured, I am neither, however I am extremely angry as I am passionate about my work, our brand which I am involved with since 21 years, as well as the achievements at the PWA...so you´ll have to excuse me if the tone seems a bit harsh, but perhaps think about you would feel yourself if someone accuses you falsely and tries to damage a reputation which has taken years to build. Unlike most of the people mentioned in the thread above, I am actually taking the time to address the issue publicly. Good evening to all, I hope for good winds tomorrow so I can sail these feelings away back into the positive mood I was in beforehand.

  • @Craig Gertenbach,


    To proceed with a discussion? Okay - how's about this points ?


    Has the PWA board (with B&M, Neil Pryde and Starboard as the biggest brands of the surfing world inside) informed Patrik before their decision about this coming decision? Was he heard before this decision?


    With PD as the only brand using plates, this decision will influence their competitors - is that fairness?


    Where's the point allowing idiotic expensive customs fin's in slalom and not allowing plates? (especially if made yourself)




    Today in this forum the integrity of PWA and their board member is questioned


    Sorry, your email ("Yes, the amendments were very late, but as of yet, I have never received a request from Patrik or any other brand via the PWa, to change them to help brands get into production? ") makes me speechless. What do you want to say with that sentence?

  • since you do not sign your mail it´s hard for me to address it to someone - but ok, t36 - as I already mentioned, the ammendments to the accessories on the boards was not a major issue, and I personally was not aware that it would have a negative impact on PD´s shapes, for the main reason that I am not occupying my ltd time checking his cutout plates etc. However now it does appear to be an issue, so why does Patrik simply not request that we allow it/as far as I know this had not been done, then we can resolve it - again, I have not seen any request, what is so hard to understand about that? If there is a problem, we have simple processes and systems to address them, same way as we do for all other rules. I for one do not see any need to ban plates, which by the way is not the actual problem here I believe, it is a question of modification, but again, this was hardly a major topic for us at the PWA, which is very much a part time voluntary job. And could have been addressed, without going onto a public forum with wild and false accusations.


    If the slalom committee, made up of only PWA riders with zero industry influence, has requested these amendments, then it is a different story, but here I am not aware that any sailor tried to ban the plates, as suggested above. As mentioned, I have requested additional info from both the PWA and Patrik himself and will certainly do my part to resolve the issue as best as possible, without all info on hand right now in this second, I cannot comment further on what has/has not been discussed with Patrik and the PWA. I will come back with more updates once I have them, I like to base my statements on facts, not rumours/theories. You say our integrity has been questioned, indeed it has, I wonder what will happen when I prove it is solid.....will we see a public apology from Totti or Patrik? I doubt it very much. But let´s wait and see what the facts are.

  • since you do not sign your mail it´s hard for me to address it to someone - but ok, t36 - as I already mentioned, the ammendments to the accessories on the boards was not a major issue, and I personally was not aware that it would have a negative impact on PD´s shapes, for the main reason that I am not occupying my ltd time checking his cutout plates etc. However now it does appear to be an issue, so why does Patrik simply not request that we allow it/as far as I know this had not been done, then we can resolve it - again, I have not seen any request, what is so hard to understand about that?


    <==because the PWA board should not act like that (not in the time of internet). This story today (the decision harms only one brand) make the PWA board member/companys look like egoistic brands or incompetent (deciding something so stupid without willing to harm one brand).


    You say our integrity has been questioned, indeed it has, I wonder what will happen when I prove it is solid.....will we see a public apology from Totti or Patrik? I doubt it very much. But let´s wait and see what the facts are.
    <=I'm sorry, but the story is mainly over. The comments (most in German) in this forum are made by amateurs surfers (and they are the spirit of surfing) - and this story makes the PWA look very bad.


    I think, it's easy for you to follow these thoughts? Boris Radeleff, Heidelberg

  • <==because the PWA board should not act like that (not in the time of internet). This story today (the decision harms only one brand) make the PWA board member/companys look like egoistic brands or incompetent (deciding something so stupid without willing to harm one brand).


    You say our integrity has been questioned, indeed it has, I wonder what will happen when I prove it is solid.....will we see a public apology from Totti or Patrik? I doubt it very much. But let´s wait and see what the facts are.
    <=I'm sorry, but the story is mainly over. The comments (most in German) in this forum are made by amateurs surfers (and they are the spirit of surfing) - and this story makes the PWA look very bad.


    I think, it's easy for you to follow these thoughts? Boris Radeleff, Heidelberg


    Boris,
    lese doch einfach mal die Amendment Rules. Ich glaube, du schießt weit übers Ziel hinaus.
    I find that Craig's arguments are quite reasonable.


    VG
    Peter

  • Ja, das wäre möglich. Aber die allgemeinen Reaktionen hier deuten auf eine allgemeine Unwohlsein mit der Geschichte?


    Aber ehrlich gesagt, ist die Antwort von Hr. Gertenbach ja wesentlich interessanter als meine Meinung:


    -er hatte einen tollen aber harten Surftag
    -ja, die Entscheidung war zu kurzfristig
    -sehr interessante Kommentare von ihm über Patrik
    -und ca. 95% war Blabla


    Alles zusammen würde ich das so werten, dass die PWA in einer ebenso gestrickten FIlterblase lebt, wie die FIFA, DFB usw..


    Also, war das eine Verschwörung, um Patrik zu schaden - nein, das glaube ich nicht, natürlich nicht.


    Aber ich kenne Patrik persönlich gut genug, um sein Statement ernstzunehmen, dass er ein Problem - anscheinend ein echtes Problem - damit hat. Und ich glaube Patrik 100%ig.


    So, what to do now? Skip this rule for one year and don't decide without representives of all top 10 ranked Brands - Seems me the best Solution. Boris t36

  • sorry for sharing my surf day, it will not happen again, just enthusiastic after being with passionate people who care about windsurfing..:-)


    No, actually, the decision was not too short-lived, you are working on presumptions again, the main problem is it appears Patrik is not happy with the rule, however he has not addressed the management board with a counter proposal to solve the issue? How can you compare FIFA to the PWA? there are 4 active members of the PWA world tour having the majority vote, so a 100% rider driven organisation? The Chairman is Jimmy Diaz with over 20yrs on the PWA and still active?


    Again, more info to follow when it is available, I presume we´ll have news asap.

  • Boris,
    lese doch einfach mal die Amendment Rules. Ich glaube, du schießt weit übers Ziel hinaus.
    I find that Craig's arguments are quite reasonable.


    VG
    Peter


    so ganz bin ich leider noch nicht vom absoluten Wohlwollen mancher Beteiligten überzeugt.


    Mal sehn,
    welche vernünftigen Argumente habe ich jetzt genau gesehen.


    Patrik hat wenig Respekt was eine bekannte Tatsache sein soll
    Totti hat auch keien Respekt vor der PWA
    Fanatic hatte Top Resultate erzielt und keine Zeit für Belange von anderen Marken, wenn es um neue Regeln geht.
    Das Amendment war Prio 50 und drunter, (und musste anscheinend trotzdem zwei Stunden vor Ablauf der Frist bekannt gemacht werden)
    Man wollte die Regeln Fair für alle machen, (trotzdem reglementiert man keine Segellatten, Masten, Finnen etc).


    Auf der positiven Seite bleibt für mich:
    - Craig hat gerade jede Menge Wind
    - Craig meldet sich überhaupt zu Wort dazu
    - Es besteht die Chance dass man die Regelung besser mit PD oder überhaupt abstimmt.

  • Terence, please stick to the context - the only reason I mentioned Fanatic´s success, is that we do not see Patrik as a major threat to us, with or without cutouts, blocks. therefore also no "Abgesprochenes Spiel", which as you see is the title of the thread and the basis of the whole issue, that the PWA management board brands tried to gain advantage over another member. We see Patrik as a competitor of course, who makes very solid good products, is passionate and dedicated. However sometimes a little too fast with claims against the bigger brands.


    My comment as the importance of the amendments, which you again take out of context, is to emphasise that we did not envision such a problem, nor did I personally realise we were limiting his design - again once more, the door is always open for discussion on it, as of yet, I have not heard from him, but welcome feedback as part of my job on the PWA.


    My opinions on Patrik and Totti are based on many discussions with them, you as faithful Patrik customers have a different opinion, fine for me.


    Again, I thought this was a windsurfing forum, so presumed readers are stoked to hear about windsurfing sessions, today was a particularly interesting day as we had the South African National slalom championships, in very demanding conditions, won by Vincent Langer on a 7.2 sail. There were gusts of up to 50knots on the course. We were worried yesterday after training that the foil kiter who joined the event would be faster, but today was just too windy for him, but he was close. So we´ll see if Vincent can continue to keep the windsurfers honour intact, I have never seen such a performance on a kite foil in such strong winds. And on that positive note I will take myself off to rest for tomorrow´s racing!

  • Terence, please stick to the context - the only reason I mentioned Fanatic´s success, is that we do not see Patrik as a major threat to us, with or without cutouts, blocks. therefore also no "Abgesprochenes Spiel", which as you see is the title of the thread and the basis of the whole issue, that the PWA management board brands tried to gain advantage over another member. We see Patrik as a competitor of course, who makes very solid good products, is passionate and dedicated. However sometimes a little too fast with claims against the bigger brands.


    My comment as the importance of the amendments, which you again take out of context, is to emphasise that we did not envision such a problem, nor did I personally realise we were limiting his design - again once more, the door is always open for discussion on it, as of yet, I have not heard from him, but welcome feedback as part of my job on the PWA.


    My opinions on Patrik and Totti are based on many discussions with them, you as faithful Patrik customers have a different opinion, fine for me.


    Hi Craig,
    I see that the title contains an accussation, but it also puts a questionmark in the end, so everyone is welcome to bring his own view. As we all have a lot of respect of the achievements of the PWA boards some people also listen up when Karin and Patrik bring this topic to attention as they too have their life time full of windsurfing experience on highest level.


    You may call this brand biased, or faithful, that's fine for me too. I wouldn't even deny that I am a little biased towards PD. But I also still own a fanatic (SUP) board and have owned many before, and Klaas is my local hero.


    I can however imagine that Totti, Patrik or Karin have no problems to apologize if any one feels personally attacked. Not sure though about the statement that issuing new rules possibly affecting board shapes without notice is not exactly fair.

  • so just a short update here - as of yet, I can confirm on information from the PWA Tour Manager, that Patrik has not contacted the PWA to ask about the amendments, protest it or even mention that he is unhappy with it? Seems quite strange to post something like this without actually talking to the PWA beforehand, given that he is both a partner brand and a competitor. Hopefully we´ll here from him soon then.

  • If it is really that simple, to get heared from PWA on new rules, then it is quite not understandable, why Patrik didn't get in contact and make a offiicial protest.
    From my perspective this is nothing special abotu windsurfing and/or PWA, this is a general way of doing it in sports. Yes, for the one race you're f**ked, but if this CAN be an easy way to solve it for the future or the rest of the season.
    I think from my view (as an absolute hobby windsurfer, with a view on other competetive sports) there are right now two things that need to be determined.


    1. The status of those plates. More something like fin equipment or part of the board, is it series or not


    2. In general, the way of changing rules in terms of time and how protests/decissions are dealed with. Compared to F1, you can protest about everything, but this has no effect on the actual race, it will be discussed and judged afterwards and the results will be altered after the race as well. Not the best thing for PR and sport in general, but fmpp, this is the only way it can work and is some kind of what you can call "fair"


    3. Doesn't matter if it is brand or driver driven, the rumors of some drivers use/used non series equipment. If this is true, and there are different sources for that if I remember correctly, then it is hard to trust and have faith in a jury on the one hand and not beeing disappointed on the other. Is it series equipment for everybody and what are changes that are allowed, had there been official protest and some deeper research if this is true or not and what is the roolebook saying on that? I think I don't need to list all of those things again that had been around about this topic.


    Grtz, Marc

  • True, it's now the open question why Patrik didn't follow the official process to hand in a protest.


    On the other hand. If there is a new rule which only affects one single brand (I assume there is no other brand using any of those parts). And the rule is issued last minute without involving that brand, who would really put much hope into a protest? It just seems very obvious. It seems(!) I would like to add. And I would honestly prefer to be proven wrong.


    other than that, Craig, happy surfing. Don't get mad. I know I can be difficult :)

  • Moin,


    also ich verstehe ja nicht ganz worum es jetzt genau geht. Um Custom Cutoutplates?
    Wie erfolgreich war denn nun Patrik bzw. seine Boards damit?
    Vielleicht wird hier viel Wind um nix gemacht um einen Hersteller als den innovativsten aller darzustellen?


    Warum hat sich denn Patrik nicht direkt beschwert?


    Also für mich klingt das irgendwie ein bisschen nach 'Germanys next Topmodell - Zickenkrieg' und Patrik ist grade beleidigt...


    Also, kinners, sprecht nochmal drüber und schafft den Tinnef aus der Welt...


    Grüße
    teenie

  • ... That Patrik has little respect for others in the business is a known fact unfortunately, but he has reach a new low here, well assisted by Totti, who we know has zero respect for the PWA or what it has achieved in the sport.


    Fanatic´s slalom results last year speak for themselves, a result of very hard work by the complete team - 4 out of 6 World Cup wins, 2 podiums, just missing the World Title on a tiebreak rule, winner of the Defi Wind and Garda One Hour classic, as well as pretty much all the main European National slalom titles.



    Irgendwas läuft doch hier momentan völlig falsch, aber vielen Dank für die Geschichten. Man könnte meinen, dass Craig Marketing studiert hat.
    Aber bleiben wir doch mal sachlich:


    Die PWA hat eine hinterfragungswürdige Entscheidung getroffen. Von der fand ich, dass man diese hinterfragen sollte. Darum gibt es dieses Thema als "FRAGE", hat jemand mein Fragezeichen und meine Fragen übersehen?


    Diese PWA Entscheidung fand nicht nur ich "merkwürdig", also gibt es dazu ein Statement von den in erster Linie Leidtragenden, den Betroffenen Geschäftsführern der Marke Patrik. Die PWA anzuschreiben für ein Statement habe ich mir gespart, denn seitens der PWA gibt es grundsätzlich keine diesbezüglichen Statements. Musste ich schon mehrfach erfahren. Die Teamfahrer von pd haben aber offenbar auch ein Problem mit dieser Entscheidung, und vor Allem der Art und Weise der Entscheidung.


    Nein, ich habe absolut keinen Respekt vor dieser PWA, die Regeln aufstellt ohne diese kontrollieren zu können und ohne diese Regeln kontrollieren zu wollen. Diese Erfahrung habe ich gemacht, diese Erfahrung haben Andere gemacht. Die PWA möchte eine Fahrervereinigung sein, zumindest wird das so kommuniziert. Sie ist es aber meiner Meinung nach nicht, ich halte sie für eine Vereinigung der größten und damit mächtigsten Marken, sprich ich halte sie für eine Markenvereinigung.
    Zur Wahrung der Interessen der Industrie. Der Sport soll im Vordergrund stehen, der Sportsmann und der Sportsgeist. Irgendwas scheint auch da falsch zu laufen.
    Ich habe damals zum Teil auch die Boardmember mit angeschrieben. Es gab eine Diskussion mit dir Craig, ja. Aber passiert ist nichts. Es endete wie immer, vergessen und vergeben...


    Ich glaube selbst, das Problem sitzt woanders verwurzelt, Stichwort Markenvereinigung. ;) Das gibt es nun bei der PWA, das gibt es in Magazintests, das gibt es bei Produktionen (Gold und Silber Kunden bei Cobra) und damit auch dem Kujonieren Anderer, die vielleicht gefährlich werden können und als Marke wachsen. Man sieht leider auch hier, dass die Interessen vielleicht doch nicht dem (Regatta-) Sport dienen.
    Boardmember sollten aktive Fahrer sein von allen Marken, zumindest müssen die ein höheres Stimmrecht haben als die Marken.


    Ja, Fanatic hat eine tolle Saison gefahren und ist Weltmeister geworden. Damit meine ich klar Vincent Langer. PWA Ranglistenerster ist A2, wird als Weltmeister gefeiert. Habe ich was verpasst oder seit wann darf die PWA nun offiziell "Weltmeister" küren? Andere Baustelle, aber immer die PWA, ja. Ich werde unsachlich. Aber vielleicht habe ich wirklich was verpasst.


    Wie schon vorher von jemand anders geschrieben wurde, finde ich das System der Serienboards auch überholt. Die These, das würde Geld sparen, hat sich schon im ersten Jahr als Unsinn herausgestellt. Es wird klar und öfter betrogen, es werden innovative Marken komplett ausgeschlossen und an einer Teilnahme an den PWA Events gehindert, die großen Marken setzen einzig und alleine ihre Interessen durch. Finnen dürfen custom made sein, Lattensätze, Masten usw.
    Teilnehmen darf nur, wer als Marke hohe Kosten trägt und eine Mitgliedschaft wählt. Mitsprache? Nö. Immerhin bringt diese Art und Weise der PWA Geld ein.


    Jetzt auch keine Cutout-Einsätze mehr, ein variables Teil an einem Board wie eine Finne von dem einzig, wirklich innovativen Shaper in der Branche (meine persönliche Meinung, bin zuletzt offiziell kein pd gefahren und halte mich für neutral). Mir fallen jedenfalls viele Dinge ein, die pd mal entwickelt und auf den Markt gebracht hat.
    Ich verstehe die Enttäuschung von Karin und Patrik sehr.


    Mir fallen sicher noch mehr Dinge ein, aber ich will auch mein Wochenende geniessen.


    Gruß


    Totti

    Dieser Text wurde nach alter, neuer und eigener Rechtschreibung geschrieben und ist daher fehlerfrei!
    Tipp Weltmeister F1 2011 & 2013, Tipp Team-Weltmeister F1 2009, 2010, 2011, 2017, 2019, 2020, 2021!


    Check out:
    Surf-Wiki.com
    Windcraft-Sports.de


    Verbrauch derzeit:
    810081.png, mit C253.
    595812.png, mit R107.
    896532.png, mit E28.

  • Ach so, vergessen, das PWA Formular für die Serienboard Registrierung.
    Im PWA Formular kann man nur die gelben Felder ausfüllen, da alle anderen gesperrt sind. Man kann keine Information über Heck Ausschnitte, Kanten, Tickets, Deck Shape usw. eingeben.

    Dateien

    Dieser Text wurde nach alter, neuer und eigener Rechtschreibung geschrieben und ist daher fehlerfrei!
    Tipp Weltmeister F1 2011 & 2013, Tipp Team-Weltmeister F1 2009, 2010, 2011, 2017, 2019, 2020, 2021!


    Check out:
    Surf-Wiki.com
    Windcraft-Sports.de


    Verbrauch derzeit:
    810081.png, mit C253.
    595812.png, mit R107.
    896532.png, mit E28.

  • Ach so, vergessen, das PWA Formular für die Serienboard Registrierung.
    Im PWA Formular kann man nur die gelben Felder ausfüllen, da alle anderen gesperrt sind. Man kann keine Information über Heck Ausschnitte, Kanten, Tickets, Deck Shape usw. eingeben.


    Wie würde man denn so überhaupt die Standardplättchen registrieren. Mal abgesehen von weiteren Plättchen?